Comments on: The Civil Marriage Bill in Israel: A small step for… womankind?? http://blog.elanasztokman.com/2009/10/14/the-civil-marriage-bill-in-israel-a-small-step-for-womankind/ For Serious Jewish Women Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:55:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Global Voices Online » Israel: Civil Marriage Good for Women’s Rights http://blog.elanasztokman.com/2009/10/14/the-civil-marriage-bill-in-israel-a-small-step-for-womankind/#comment-11200 Global Voices Online » Israel: Civil Marriage Good for Women’s Rights Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:37:31 +0000 http://blog.elanasztokman.com/?p=355#comment-11200 [...] Sztokman assesses how a new civil marriage bill would improve Israeli women's civil rights. She asserts: [...] [...] Sztokman assesses how a new civil marriage bill would improve Israeli women's civil rights. She asserts: [...]

]]> By: Maya Norton http://blog.elanasztokman.com/2009/10/14/the-civil-marriage-bill-in-israel-a-small-step-for-womankind/#comment-11198 Maya Norton Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:24:59 +0000 http://blog.elanasztokman.com/?p=355#comment-11198 Dear Elana, An astute analysis of an issue that effects so many deeply. Thanks for your insight. I'll definitely be visiting your blog again. ~ Maya The New Jew: Blogging Jewish Philanthropy & Innovation Dear Elana,

An astute analysis of an issue that effects so many deeply. Thanks for your insight. I’ll definitely be visiting your blog again.

~ Maya

The New Jew: Blogging Jewish Philanthropy & Innovation

]]> By: Post-Chagim Weekly Wrap Up « Ilana-Davita http://blog.elanasztokman.com/2009/10/14/the-civil-marriage-bill-in-israel-a-small-step-for-womankind/#comment-11191 Post-Chagim Weekly Wrap Up « Ilana-Davita Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:57:31 +0000 http://blog.elanasztokman.com/?p=355#comment-11191 [...] The Civil Marriage Bill in Israel: A small step for… womankind?? by Elena Sztokman [...] [...] The Civil Marriage Bill in Israel: A small step for… womankind?? by Elena Sztokman [...]

]]> By: Dan http://blog.elanasztokman.com/2009/10/14/the-civil-marriage-bill-in-israel-a-small-step-for-womankind/#comment-11046 Dan Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:01:17 +0000 http://blog.elanasztokman.com/?p=355#comment-11046 Elana et al If I understand correctly, you're celebrating that a change - any change - is actually happening, rather than addressing the essence of the proposal and rather than saying that there's anything specifically positive about it. Indeed, it's hard to see how this will do anything at all. Does this really "Introduce the concept of religious marriage"? Or, in somewhat typical fashion, it attempts to tackle the easier part of the problem, but in reality, does next to nothing. As you correctly state - this is easily proven by the fact that the haredi parties have not voiced any opposition. I'd also like to throw out a comment to Michael Makovi's response above, specifically the comment: "their (Haredi) religious fundamentalism is NOT Jewish religious, rather something more similar to Medieval Catholicism". As a modern orthodox Jew who grew up in Israel and has spent significant time in the US, I believe this gives the Haredi political establishment too much credit. I would actually argue that their political view of life is little more than a power hungry minority with too much king-making power thanks to the shortcomings of the Israeli political system, and that much of the behvior of the Rabbanut and Batei Din is tantamount to an almighty hilul hashem. Finally - I'm looking forward to reading the 30-page proposal :-) Elana et al
If I understand correctly, you’re celebrating that a change - any change - is actually happening, rather than addressing the essence of the proposal and rather than saying that there’s anything specifically positive about it. Indeed, it’s hard to see how this will do anything at all. Does this really “Introduce the concept of religious marriage”? Or, in somewhat typical fashion, it attempts to tackle the easier part of the problem, but in reality, does next to nothing. As you correctly state - this is easily proven by the fact that the haredi parties have not voiced any opposition.

I’d also like to throw out a comment to Michael Makovi’s response above, specifically the comment: “their (Haredi) religious fundamentalism is NOT Jewish religious, rather something more similar to Medieval Catholicism”. As a modern orthodox Jew who grew up in Israel and has spent significant time in the US, I believe this gives the Haredi political establishment too much credit. I would actually argue that their political view of life is little more than a power hungry minority with too much king-making power thanks to the shortcomings of the Israeli political system, and that much of the behvior of the Rabbanut and Batei Din is tantamount to an almighty hilul hashem.

Finally - I’m looking forward to reading the 30-page proposal :-)

]]> By: Michael Makovi http://blog.elanasztokman.com/2009/10/14/the-civil-marriage-bill-in-israel-a-small-step-for-womankind/#comment-11034 Michael Makovi Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:19:34 +0000 http://blog.elanasztokman.com/?p=355#comment-11034 According to this law, can a Jew declare himself to be "without religion", and thereby avail himself of this civil marriage? Being a German-style Neo-Orthodox Jew, I cannot help but have images of Austritt flash through my mind; before Austritt was passed by the German civil government, a German Orthodox Jew could not leave the Reform community without renouncing his very Jewishness. Personally, I'd love to secede in Israel and have my own private halakhic marriage. Now, I'm a religious fundamentalist of the same caliber as any Haredi, so ideally, I'd be opposing the possibility of civil marriage for Jews. On the other hand, being such a hardline religious fundamentalist, I'd be endorsing the traditional halakhic laws of conversion (allowing Orthodox conversion for <i>anyone</i> - ritually-observant or not - who desires it, as per Rabbis Benzion Uziel and Eliezer Berkovits), and I'd likewise be endorsing the traditional halakhic willingness to do <i>anything</i> to a husband who withholds a <i>get</i>. So except for Jews who want to marry non-Jews committed to their non-Jewish religion and who refuse to accept a free Orthodox-Jewish conversion (see above), I cannot imagine anyone in Israel being disatisfied with my religious fundamentalism. Were religion in Israel conducted properly and Jewishly, I'd be urging for a theocratic state, like any Haredi. The problem is that religion in Israel is anything but Jewish character, and hence my support for civil marriage in Israel. The problem with the Haredim isn't that they are fundamentalist, since I am as fundamentalist as they are, and yet many Reform and Conservative Jews would appear to be quite happy with my vision for a theocratic Israel. (See Lilit Marcus's response to my proposal to have a mixed-sex mehitza-free section of the Kotel: http://www.jewcy.com/post/kotel_and_wall#comment-33759. I am currently expanding my proposal to full scholarly essay form. However, as it is running 30 pages, I'm not sure who will want to read it.) Rather, then the problem with the Haredim is that their religious fundamentalism is NOT Jewish religious fundamentalism, but is rather something more similar to Medieval Catholicism. (I adumbrate this point in my essay on the Kotel, and I treat it more fully in another essay of mine, http://www.scribd.com/doc/18585968/On-Orthodox-Regard-for-Nonobservant-Jews-Thoughts-on-Kashruth-Certification-Policies-and-on-Sociology-Leading-to-Polemicism-in-Halakhah-on-German.) According to this law, can a Jew declare himself to be “without religion”, and thereby avail himself of this civil marriage? Being a German-style Neo-Orthodox Jew, I cannot help but have images of Austritt flash through my mind; before Austritt was passed by the German civil government, a German Orthodox Jew could not leave the Reform community without renouncing his very Jewishness. Personally, I’d love to secede in Israel and have my own private halakhic marriage.

Now, I’m a religious fundamentalist of the same caliber as any Haredi, so ideally, I’d be opposing the possibility of civil marriage for Jews. On the other hand, being such a hardline religious fundamentalist, I’d be endorsing the traditional halakhic laws of conversion (allowing Orthodox conversion for anyone - ritually-observant or not - who desires it, as per Rabbis Benzion Uziel and Eliezer Berkovits), and I’d likewise be endorsing the traditional halakhic willingness to do anything to a husband who withholds a get. So except for Jews who want to marry non-Jews committed to their non-Jewish religion and who refuse to accept a free Orthodox-Jewish conversion (see above), I cannot imagine anyone in Israel being disatisfied with my religious fundamentalism.

Were religion in Israel conducted properly and Jewishly, I’d be urging for a theocratic state, like any Haredi. The problem is that religion in Israel is anything but Jewish character, and hence my support for civil marriage in Israel. The problem with the Haredim isn’t that they are fundamentalist, since I am as fundamentalist as they are, and yet many Reform and Conservative Jews would appear to be quite happy with my vision for a theocratic Israel. (See Lilit Marcus’s response to my proposal to have a mixed-sex mehitza-free section of the Kotel: http://www.jewcy.com/post/kotel_and_wall#comment-33759. I am currently expanding my proposal to full scholarly essay form. However, as it is running 30 pages, I’m not sure who will want to read it.) Rather, then the problem with the Haredim is that their religious fundamentalism is NOT Jewish religious fundamentalism, but is rather something more similar to Medieval Catholicism. (I adumbrate this point in my essay on the Kotel, and I treat it more fully in another essay of mine, http://www.scribd.com/doc/18585968/On-Orthodox-Regard-for-Nonobservant-Jews-Thoughts-on-Kashruth-Certification-Policies-and-on-Sociology-Leading-to-Polemicism-in-Halakhah-on-German.)

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